PC Gaming: Constantly Advancing | Consoles: Locked into 'Generations'

Yet bout 80% of the time, the PC is essentially locked to current trends aswell despite its constantly advancing hardware is it not? sure PC evolves and things become more powerful bout twice a year in terms of products, but the developers really need to cater to the lower end aging hardware aswell that is still capable?

Sure you can fire the most expensive parts or cry the PC's evolving arguement but essentially the PC's locked to these generations leaps aswell in many a way whether it be multiplats or various other things like consumers unwilling to update their computers every couple of years to be relevant etc.A lot of PC games are able to be played by a modest setup from a store is it not? so wouldnt PC gamers inherently hinder themselves sometimes by catering to the denominators aswell?

Its an easy thing to pick at consoles for their weak hardware but developers need to think bout much more than Johnny console.Trust me there are PC gamers out there who get by just enjoying the game on low-med.razgriz_101

This is true, and that's the reason why the whole "constant advance" of PC tech isn't that relevant, since the vast majority of games are built around consoles.

So yeah, JC2 and TW2 look nicer on PC, but they're still the (almost) exact same game that you can get on a 360 and PS3.

Which makes the whole point kinda void.

[QUOTE="razgriz_101"]Yet bout 80% of the time, the PC is essentially locked to current trends aswell despite its constantly advancing hardware is it not? sure PC evolves and things become more powerful bout twice a year in terms of products, but the developers really need to cater to the lower end aging hardware aswell that is still capable?

Sure you can fire the most expensive parts or cry the PC's evolving arguement but essentially the PC's locked to these generations leaps aswell in many a way whether it be multiplats or various other things like consumers unwilling to update their computers every couple of years to be relevant etc.A lot of PC games are able to be played by a modest setup from a store is it not? so wouldnt PC gamers inherently hinder themselves sometimes by catering to the denominators aswell?

Its an easy thing to pick at consoles for their weak hardware but developers need to think bout much more than Johnny console.Trust me there are PC gamers out there who get by just enjoying the game on low-med.IronBass

This is true, and that's the reason why the whole "constant advance" of PC tech isn't that relevant, since the vast majority of games are built around consoles.

So yeah, JC2 and TW2 look nicer on PC, but they're still the (almost) exact same game that you can get on a 360 and PS3.

Which makes the whole point kinda void.

Not really. You can play God of War PS2 version on your PS3 with better graphics - which version would you choose?

Graphics/resolution/controls are game changers, fidelity creates immersion, resolution allows you to see more (more immersion), controls allow you to feel connected to the character.

JC2 is dramatically better looking on PC, has high 60+ FPS, controls better and is moddable (I have the 2 mile bolo)(all vehicles purchaseable from blackmarket)(first person shooter mode)

Not really. You can play God of War PS2 version on your PS3 with better graphics - which version would you choose?ehussein1379

If I had to pay a significant amount of money just for the enhanced graphics, the PS2 version.

[QUOTE="ehussein1379"]Not really. You can play God of War PS2 version on your PS3 with better graphics - which version would you choose?IronBass

If I had to pay a significant amount of money just for the enhanced graphics, the PS2 version.

So its an economy of scale. Fair enough.

The next consoles will be current PCs, though probably dramatically less capable than a current top-end PC.

[QUOTE="razgriz_101"]

[QUOTE="ehussein1379"]

DICE seems to think both can work. BF3 is PC first, port to console.

In my estimation they have determined that PC is on a dramatic rise, and shoring up their bets to be seen as 'PC capable' developers.

AncientDozer

Or at the same time they know where their sales are for the series......they are catering to their biggest demograph first.

I agree they are pandering, they don't want to lose the console crowd.

They proved by example their dedication to PC though; the videos on PC are a graphical leap that will absorb PC prowess and spit it out chewed up.

So its an economy of scale. Fair enough.ehussein1379

[QUOTE="ehussein1379"]So its an economy of scale. Fair enough.IronBass

I'll agree with you there. Anecdotally a friend is perpetually trying to save money, and bought a PS3 instead of PC for that exact reason.

However, he sees my gaming box and W2/Crysis/GTA4modded/JC2/ME2 enhanced and laments his decision.

Sometimes spending a little more can actually save you money, if you aren't happy with the 'low-end' product.

PC offers way more than a console, but you have to pay for it. JC2 modded for example is a different version of the game, same base, different outcome.

[QUOTE="ehussein1379"]

[QUOTE="IronBass"] Pretty much. Paying $300 for a gaming console whose tech it's gonna be fully used makes more sense to me than spening $800+ just to get nicer version of the exact same games. It's just better value.AncientDozer

I'll agree with you there. Anecdotally a friend is perpetually trying to save money, and bought a PS3 instead of PC for that exact reason.

However, he sees my gaming box and W2/Crysis/GTA4modded/JC2/ME2 enhanced and laments his decision.

Sometimes spending a little more can actually save you money, if you aren't happy with the 'low-end' product.

PC offers way more than a console, but you have to pay for it. JC2 modded for example is a different version of the game, same base, different outcome.

That is counterintuitive. A game that offers a dramatic increase in fidelity and gameplay possibility and you are getting it on the 360?

Does not compute.

Coveting != logically concluding that you should have purchased something else

Ironically it wasn't the graphics, but JC2 mods that blew his mind. Nothing like having unlimited bolos with higher tensile strength in that game!

How do you explain Demon Souls, or Witcher 2, or Mass Effect 2 GOTY?ehussein1379

[QUOTE="ehussein1379"]How do you explain Demon Souls, or Witcher 2, or Mass Effect 2 GOTY?clone01

Compared to Halo/Gears/UC they are infinitely more complex.

[QUOTE="razgriz_101"]

[QUOTE="ehussein1379"]

That isn't necessarily true. Gaming is now mainstream, it wasn't then; I think you will see gaming drift back towards complexity in the coming years.

ehussein1379

I dont really think so apart from the simulators thats all that will really shift up a gear in terms of complexity.

How do you explain Demon Souls, or Witcher 2, or Mass Effect 2 GOTY? Those are inkling back towards complexity and away from the 'Gears mentality'.

In the 2005-2008 era games were definitely pigeon holed into Halo/Gears style shoot first, never ask questions. We seem to be coming out of that.

Demons souls is just generally a hard game to be honest i wouldnt say its that compex either in a lot of senses, fire cash into the stats upgrade stats keep plugging and move on slowly but surely.

Mass Effect 2 you've got to be having a laugh surely.

Compared to Halo/Gears/UC they are infinitely more complex.

ehussein1379

So a very light RPG element = infinitely more complex?

[QUOTE="ehussein1379"]So its an economy of scale. Fair enough.IronBass

Console gaming = less confusing, easier to use, and cheaper hardware.

This is how it has always been and this is why the consoles have been popular. When a person sees a PC they don't see a gaming machine, they see a tool to access the internet, write documents, store music, maybe watch internet videos, and play some basic games. When somebody sees an Xbox 360 they see an easy-to-use and quite affordable gaming device.

Sure the PC's can do everything a console can, but usually that adds a big hassle for anybody who's not extremely knowledgeable about PCs. This is why the consoles are there. People don't want to mess with upgrades or anything, they want to put in the game and play. Simple and fun.

Wasdie

Now that I got that out of the way, to be more with your point, consoles being locked into generations has it's advantages for game developers. They don't have to worry about the many different hardware configurations of the PC, they don't have to worry about grpahical libraries being updated, and they don't have to worry about things like SLI or Crossfire.

They get their dev kits and work with those. Sure they get new dev kits from time to time but it's nothing like a whole new version of DX or even a whole new line of AMD GPUs that do something different than the previous line. This allows the developers to really get to know what the consoles are capable of and work within those constraints to make a very good game. THey also don't have to spend millions and millions on new graphics engines all of the time to take advantage of new features.

Wasdie

One thing that worries me is that we see more and more games that aren't getting a PC version. Do these advances really prove anything if there aren't the games to back it up? This is why I think that Valve should make an attempt to intervene.

[QUOTE="110million"]

[QUOTE="Ravensmash"]devote hours in to researching the best parts/combinations. Then comes the physical aspect of building the PC....I don't particularly want to construct it myself - not just through laziness either.AncientDozer

This is basically a myth. A friend once asked for help with building a PC, he told me the price range and what he wanted it for, and in like 10 minutes I found him all the parts for cheap prices. Say you want to spend $800, RAM and Motherboards are all pretty standard, GPU and CPU are the only parts that take a bit of research. You find out within your price range, and check a hardware site or two to see how it performs on games you may want to get.

Putting the parts themselves together is essentially lego, back in highschool I've seen 14 year old girls being walked through it, everything just clips together.

I hightlighed something key here.

A lot of PC gamers will talk about how easy it is. For them. It's all hindsight, you know? And from experience. You have all the experience, he did not.

And, really, it's not easy for the average person if they shove all the responsibility on someone else. Which, by the way, still adds hassle and extra steps compared to the "go to game stop and pick up console" thing.

I can talk my Nephew into taking apart and then putting back together an assault rifle but that doesn't mean he'd know how to do it on his own or without supervision.

The PC gamers who make these arguments need to stop forgetting that they are talking from their own experience and abilities rather than the point of view of someone foreign to building a cost effective computer. Not everyone is going to be fortunate to havea friend to do all the work or walk them through.

[QUOTE="IronBass"][QUOTE="ehussein1379"]So its an economy of scale. Fair enough.ehussein1379

I'll agree with you there. Anecdotally a friend is perpetually trying to save money, and bought a PS3 instead of PC for that exact reason.

However, he sees my gaming box and W2/Crysis/GTA4modded/JC2/ME2 enhanced and laments his decision.

Sometimes spending a little more can actually save you money, if you aren't happy with the 'low-end' product.

PC offers way more than a console, but you have to pay for it. JC2 modded for example is a different version of the game, same base, different outcome.

[QUOTE="AncientDozer"]

[QUOTE="110million"]

This is basically a myth. A friend once asked for help with building a PC, he told me the price range and what he wanted it for, and in like 10 minutes I found him all the parts for cheap prices. Say you want to spend $800, RAM and Motherboards are all pretty standard, GPU and CPU are the only parts that take a bit of research. You find out within your price range, and check a hardware site or two to see how it performs on games you may want to get.

Putting the parts themselves together is essentially lego, back in highschool I've seen 14 year old girls being walked through it, everything just clips together.

dom2000

I hightlighed something key here.

A lot of PC gamers will talk about how easy it is. For them. It's all hindsight, you know? And from experience. You have all the experience, he did not.

And, really, it's not easy for the average person if they shove all the responsibility on someone else. Which, by the way, still adds hassle and extra steps compared to the "go to game stop and pick up console" thing.

I can talk my Nephew into taking apart and then putting back together an assault rifle but that doesn't mean he'd know how to do it on his own or without supervision.

The PC gamers who make these arguments need to stop forgetting that they are talking from their own experience and abilities rather than the point of view of someone foreign to building a cost effective computer. Not everyone is going to be fortunate to havea friend to do all the work or walk them through.

[QUOTE="ehussein1379"]How do you explain Demon Souls, or Witcher 2, or Mass Effect 2 GOTY?clone01

[QUOTE="dom2000"][QUOTE="AncientDozer"]

I hightlighed something key here.

A lot of PC gamers will talk about how easy it is. For them. It's all hindsight, you know? And from experience. You have all the experience, he did not.

And, really, it's not easy for the average person if they shove all the responsibility on someone else. Which, by the way, still adds hassle and extra steps compared to the "go to game stop and pick up console" thing.

I can talk my Nephew into taking apart and then putting back together an assault rifle but that doesn't mean he'd know how to do it on his own or without supervision.

The PC gamers who make these arguments need to stop forgetting that they are talking from their own experience and abilities rather than the point of view of someone foreign to building a cost effective computer. Not everyone is going to be fortunate to havea friend to do all the work or walk them through.

savagetwinkie

Cooking is actually a great comparison :) Anyone one can do it with a little motivation, basic practical skills and the ability to read!

Still I like consoles better, because I can use them more easily. I play alot on the PC, and I really like it, but I hate it when a game doesn't run well or not at all.

Still I like consoles better, because I can use them more easily. I play alot on the PC, and I really like it, but I hate it when a game doesn't run well or not at all.

tom95b

[QUOTE="tom95b"]

Still I like consoles better, because I can use them more easily. I play alot on the PC, and I really like it, but I hate it when a game doesn't run well or not at all.

savagetwinkie

And then there's gameboards - I prefer them over a keyboard for gaming, but I've tried two, and the drivers both suck. Logitech's G13 drivers would cause keys to "stick", while Razer's Nostromo drivers have the exact opposite problem (keys release even when still held). Again, not new technology and from established vendors - it should just work.

Brilliant post couldnt have said it better myself! To an average person even terms like "ghz" are confusing and they would not be aware of for example what ram works with what motherboard, very basic things that pc gamers know nearly instinctively. To build a computer without any prior knowledge it undoubtably requires quite abit of time googling various things and then having the confidence to actually put the thing together, knowing that you could potentially destroy quite an expensive piece of equipment. As Wasdie very rightfully said the average person does not want to do this and probably thinks building a computer is much harder than it actually is hence will never look up how to do it.dom2000

Don't understand why anyone thrives on their own ignorance. Like I said, I had a friend who was essentially a sheltered apple fan, who was able to find it all out on his own, and no feeling, not even that of a brand new console, can match the feeling of building your own computer.

You know how hard it is to see if a certain motherboard works with a certain ram? You go to a motherboard, it will say like DDR3 1333, you go to memory, you make sure its DDR3 of any kind, up to 1333. The Motherboard says AMD AM3 for CPU, you search AMD AM3 CPUs, get one in your price range. Graphic cards are standard and will always fit. Whatever harddrive you want works, whatever disk drive you want will work.

The sites where you buy parts are made to be useable by the absolute noobs of PC building, people who have never done it before. You match words and numbers and you're seriously done in a few minutes. Like I said, the actual building is not much harder than lego. Things snap together and screw nicely.

I have watched the advancement in computers over the years from an IBM PC/AT with a 286 processor that my brother had to what I first bought in 2000 (I didn't want a PC before 1998 when Rainbow Six first came out). My first PC worked fine for an OEM type PC (Gateway). It didn't take long before I needed a bit more space. I ended up putting in a HD myself, even though I had never done it before.

I ended up building my first PC 19 months after buying that first PC (I learned a lot about games and 3d gaming with Ghost Recon trust me). I found it wasn't hard, one has to pay attention and put every thing together carefully (no extra standoffs etc.). Putting a PC together is simple, things are marked and can only be inserted one way. Still, my mechanical background may have helped me (I was a mechanic and rebuilt engines). Engines and PCs are nothing but puzzles. If you can put together a 25 piece puzzle, you can put together a PC.

My current rig is vastly more advanced and evolved from the first PC I bought. The irony is, my first PC had specs not too far under the specs for the XBox. The X360 has not come anywhere near my current PC in terms of hardware or capabilities even though the the 360 is second generation hardware for MS.

Some people are locked to just graphics when it comes to games, but for me, it is much more due to the types of games I like. Honestly, there is no console game that could ever come close to handling what Flight Simulator does. Sure, I like my airports to look decent as well as my airplane, but I want weather that changes depending on where I am, lighting that matches the time of day, and aircraft populating the skies and airports. The one thing that hasn't happened yet is having ATC properly "communicate" with me and have AI aircraft react to what I am doing (there are 3rd party programs that do this though). All of this happens in the CPU and not a GPU. The GPU just dresses everything.

pc gaming is wasted potentialas few games take advantage of all these advances as you put it. Pc graphics went pretty much no where since crysis. Only after 5 years into this gen have pc starting moving forward. every 6 months there are new video cards no way devs can keep up with that.

pc gaming is wasted potentialas few games take advantage of all these advances as you put it. Pc graphics went pretty much no where since crysis. Only after 5 years into this gen have pc starting moving forward. every 6 months there are new video cards no way devs can keep up with that.

dontshackzmii

Crysis 2 with DX11 patch, Witcher 2, Shogun 2, are all far more impressive than vanilla crysis. Most of the really good Crysis shots are heavily moded.

[QUOTE="dontshackzmii"]

pc gaming is wasted potentialas few games take advantage of all these advances as you put it. Pc graphics went pretty much no where since crysis. Only after 5 years into this gen have pc starting moving forward. every 6 months there are new video cards no way devs can keep up with that.

110million

Crysis 2 with DX11 patch, Witcher 2, Shogun 2, are all far more impressive than vanilla crysis. Most of the really good Crysis shots are heavily moded.

and what was your point?

[QUOTE="Wasdie"]

Console gaming = less confusing, easier to use, and cheaper hardware.

This is how it has always been and this is why the consoles have been popular. When a person sees a PC they don't see a gaming machine, they see a tool to access the internet, write documents, store music, maybe watch internet videos, and play some basic games. When somebody sees an Xbox 360 they see an easy-to-use and quite affordable gaming device.

Sure the PC's can do everything a console can, but usually that adds a big hassle for anybody who's not extremely knowledgeable about PCs. This is why the consoles are there. People don't want to mess with upgrades or anything, they want to put in the game and play. Simple and fun.

SajuukSW

[QUOTE="110million"]

[QUOTE="dontshackzmii"]Pc graphics went pretty much no where since crysis.

dontshackzmii

Crysis 2 with DX11 patch, Witcher 2, Shogun 2, are all far more impressive than vanilla crysis. Most of the really good Crysis shots are heavily moded.

and what was your point?

That you are wrong. Not every game needs to be Crysis anyways, there have been a ton of really impressive games that are completely impossible on consoles.

[QUOTE="dontshackzmii"]

[QUOTE="110million"]

Crysis 2 with DX11 patch, Witcher 2, Shogun 2, are all far more impressive than vanilla crysis. Most of the really good Crysis shots are heavily moded.

110million

and what was your point?

That you are wrong. Not every game needs to be Crysis anyways, there have been a ton of really impressive games that are completely impossible on consoles.

vomplryrly impossible on consoles you say? do you jest sir? :lol:

Witch and crysis are coming to consoles! dx 11 is over rated it only adds tessolation

pc gaming is wasted potentialas few games take advantage of all these advances as you put it. Pc graphics went pretty much no where since crysis. Only after 5 years into this gen have pc starting moving forward. every 6 months there are new video cards no way devs can keep up with that.

dontshackzmii

Again, a PC game doesn't need the best graphics necessarily, there can be much more under the hood with the game outside of what is actually visible, things that one will not see that can push a PC game. People always bring up Crysis for it's graphics, but other games push the PC due to what is actually under the hood. Those games could never even begin to run on a console as there is just not enough computing power to run them above single digit frame rates.

Console gaming = less confusing, easier to use, and cheaper hardware.

This is how it has always been and this is why the consoles have been popular. When a person sees a PC they don't see a gaming machine, they see a tool to access the internet, write documents, store music, maybe watch internet videos, and play some basic games. When somebody sees an Xbox 360 they see an easy-to-use and quite affordable gaming device.

Sure the PC's can do everything a console can, but usually that adds a big hassle for anybody who's not extremely knowledgeable about PCs. This is why the consoles are there. People don't want to mess with upgrades or anything, they want to put in the game and play. Simple and fun.

Wasdie

Honestly from my short time with PC gaming, it is pretty straight forward. I don't even have any sort of extensive knowlegde about computers and getting everything up and runnign wasn't too bad at all. With services like Steam that even automatically install patches/updates for games there really isn't much to do that is very difficult. Only thing I've had trouble with was installing a graphics mod on Crysis.

Mods for games like Fallout 3 and Just Cause 2 are a snap though

vomplryrly impossible on consoles you say? do you jest sir? :lol:

Witch and crysis are coming to consoles! dx 11 is over rated it only adds tessolation

dontshackzmii

First of all,

Even PC versions of console games can be done to a point where they would be impossible on consoles.

Looks like that, runs 120 fps on modest rigs.

Second, Witcher 2 will be lucky to run low-medium and over 30 fps.

Thirdly, DX11's biggest feature difference might be Tesselation, but it does a lot more to make graphics processing more efficient, and look quite a bit better.

Neogaf has a whole thread of what consoles will never be able to do.

Some are obviously indie or old games, but the majority are high or max settings PC game, and you'd be lucky to find one made in the last 6 years that was made on a proper budget and could look and run half that well on consoles. Sub-HD and 30 FPS, is what the majority of console games are.

[QUOTE="dontshackzmii"]

vomplryrly impossible on consoles you say? do you jest sir? :lol:

Witch and crysis are coming to consoles! dx 11 is over rated it only adds tessolation

110million

First of all,

Even PC versions of console games can be done to a point where they would be impossible on consoles.

Looks like that, runs 120 fps on modest rigs.

Second, Witcher 2 will be lucky to run low-medium and over 30 fps.

Thirdly, DX11's biggest feature difference might be Tesselation, but it does a lot more to make graphics processing more efficient, and look quite a bit better.

Neogaf has a whole thread of what consoles will never be able to do.

Some are obviously indie or old games, but the majority are high or max settings PC game, and you'd be lucky to find one made in the last 6 years that was made on a proper budget and could look and run half that well on consoles. Sub-HD and 30 FPS, is what the majority of console games are.

the games can be done on consoles just not high settings.

the games can be done on consoles just not high settings.

dontshackzmii

You were saying that video card power goes to waste, but when a game on a console is 30 fps, 570p, no AA, with framerate issues, etc, and the PC version is constant 60-120 FPS, 8x AA, smooth as heck, and 1080p or higher, its very much displaying that PC hardware is capable of far more.

[QUOTE="110million"]

[QUOTE="Wasdie"]

Sure the PC's can do everything a console can, but usually that adds a big hassle for anybody who's not extremely knowledgeable about PCs.

Wasdie

I had a friend who had been using nothing but computers bought by his parents in the past, and used Macs when he went to college, his macbook broke, out of warrenty, paid to get it fixed, broke again, so he decided to build a PC. It took him a while to research parts, but on his own, he built a fairly nice PC for a fairly cheap price. Big hassle is crap, if you can read, you can build a PC.

This is also true with any kind of game modding. Google can teach you how to do just about anything. It doesn't take a computer expert, it takes someone willing to learn or do a bit of research.

You don't understand the mentality of most people. They aren't willing to google things for answers, they aren't will to even put together a PC, they aren't willing to learn.

PCs are a hassle because you use them for much more than gaming. Sure they aren't much for me, but I've been doing them forever and I enjoy messing with my computer. An average person wants things easy, isn't willing to learn, and will pay a bit extra for connivance.

This is also whats great about the pc.

It's not a hassle to the competent. It might be a hassle to the type of person you describe, but guess what? I don't want them in the pc community. It's nice to have a barrier to entry that keeps out the lowest common denominator that you're talking about. The only concern I have is if pc becomes too niche. I'm not that worried.

the games can be done on consoles just not high settings.

dontshackzmii

You never answered my earlier question in relation to if a game was casual.

I doubt we will ever see a console ever run this game. While not a graphically astonishing game, it does have other attributes that make it astounding, active weather, hundreds of AI being tracked over a broad area (out to at least 50 miles or so) both in the air and on the ground. At this airport (Atlanta Hartsfield), there are at least 75 aircraft in a 5 mile area. No other game is a whole world game (as every place on the Earth is accessible).

Gens are better, you don't have to keep constantly upgrading hardware :D

[QUOTE="dontshackzmii"]

the games can be done on consoles just not high settings.

WhiteKnight77

You never answered my earlier question in relation to if a game was casual.

I doubt we will ever see a console ever run this game. While not a graphically astonishing game, it does have other attributes that make it astounding, active weather, hundreds of AI being tracked over a broad area (out to at least 50 miles or so) both in the air and on the ground. At this airport (Atlanta Hartsfield), there are at least 75 aircraft in a 5 mile area. No other game is a whole world game (as every place on the Earth is accessible).

This is a flight simulator, not a game...

[QUOTE="dontshackzmii"]

pc gaming is wasted potentialas few games take advantage of all these advances as you put it. Pc graphics went pretty much no where since crysis. Only after 5 years into this gen have pc starting moving forward. every 6 months there are new video cards no way devs can keep up with that.

WhiteKnight77

Again, a PC game doesn't need the best graphics necessarily, there can be much more under the hood with the game outside of what is actually visible, things that one will not see that can push a PC game. People always bring up Crysis for it's graphics, but other games push the PC due to what is actually under the hood. Those games could never even begin to run on a console as there is just not enough computing power to run them above single digit frame rates.

the games can be done on consoles just not high settings.dontshackzmii